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Haudenosaunee Tadodahos

 
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srhigham
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject: Haudenosaunee Tadodahos Reply with quote

Bruce,

You mentioned that it would be nice to have a list of the Tadodahos or Fire-Keepers of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) Confederacy (also called Speakers or Chief-of-chiefs.)I only have a small amount of information on this and it is likely that nothing here is new to you...

A historical theory from the last 10 or 15 years provided a date for the founding of this confederacy.

The historians took as true two facts. Firstly, that there had been 145 Tadodahos up to the date of the study. This number apparently was developed from oral traditions as well as (possibly) looking at objects
known as "Condolence Canes" that (at the least) "list" the number of Tadodahos with beadwork. (I believe that the canes do not indicate the names of the Tadodahos, since the beads or decorations offer at most mnemonic devices.) Also, the oral (later written) foundation story indicates that the confederacy was founded during a total solar eclipse that (obviously) predated the colonial era. (The details of this foundation are well known and I won't go into them here.) Also, although early American historians thought the foundation occurred not too far before the colonial era, the Haudenosaunee themselves thought it occurred hundreds of years before.

Based on the eclipse and the number of Tadodahos on the list, the historians theorized that the foundation occured on August 31, 1142.

Unfortunately, I've so far only been able to find the names of 4 of the now 146 Tadodahos! Embarassed These are:

1. Tadodaho (Atotarho) 1142-? (his name became the title)
?. Joseph Brant (Thayendanega) <1759-1807
145. Leon Shenandoah 1967 or 1969 - 1996
146. Sid Hill 2002 - present.

I believe there might be a two year trial period at the beginning of "reigns" that could be the reason for two dates at the beginning of Chief Shenandoah's dates. I've seen the same discrepancy (to 2000) for Chief Hill.

It should be possible to track down some other names starting with the beginning of the colonial era. I am dubious about the existence of all the names earlier than that.

srhigham
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srhigham
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a small amount of new information and a correction:

Brant could not have been Tadodaho since he was a Cayuga, not an Onandaga.

A contemporary report stated that Cartier was harangued by an old Indian woman with the names of 33 Tadodahos in 1534. Shocked

I have the name of Chief #144 (from Onandaga Nation website).

With that, my known list is now:

1. Tadodaho (Atotarho) (1142-?) (his name became the title)
33. name unknown (c.1534)
144. George Thomas (? – 1965)
145. Leon Shenandoah (1967 or 1969 – 1996)
146. Sid Hill (2002 – present)
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srhigham
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce,

I posted the following before the BB was taken down:


Bruce,

Here are the latest results of my research. Most of this new material was gleaned by careful reading of
Fenton’s “The Great Law and the Longhouse.” I can now present the names of 17 head Onondaga sachems.
These should all be Tadodahos, holders of equivalent titles, attested as Grand Council leaders, or head
Onondaga sachems. All of these should be functionally the same thing. Fenton seems to have actively
sought to find any and all references to the Tadodaho title. It turns out that this title, and the Iroquios
League Council mechanism, is an elusive and obscure thing in the historical record, and in fact seems to
have died out completely at times. For instance, the title itself was unknown to outsiders until 1745! There
are periods where some or all of the Tadodaho functions were done by men with different titles.

By the way, Fenton was a lifetime professional ethno-historian who devoted his entire career to the
Iroquois.

I’ve tried to format this document according to the Regnal Chronology model, with some names (not the
17) indented if they were important Onondaga chiefs, but definitely not head sachems. I’ve also put in
“era” corresponding to the location of the Council Fire. I hope my formatting will survive the transition
from MS Word to your forum.

Fenton doesn’t continue the story in any detail past the Handsome Lake period (c. 1805). If there is more
information out there, it would be for the period 1805 to present. However, it’s my belief that this
information will be in primary scholarly sources, or in private hands.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

srhigham


Tadodahos of the Haudenosaunee and other Onondaga head sachems

First Onondaga Era (1142 or c.1450 – 1777)
1142 or c. 1450 Semi-legendary foundation of the League of Five Nations by the prophet
Deganawidah and his disciple Hiawatha, accepted by Tadodaho and 49 other chiefs. The fifty
names are passed down as titles.
Tadodaho (Atotarho) (1142-? or c. 1450-?) (his name became the title)

name unknown (33rd Tadodaho) (fl. 1534) (Mohawk tradition says that Cartier was harangued with the
names of 33 Tadodahos)

Garakontie, called Sagochiendagehte (1654 - 1677) (This title, meaning “the name bearer”,
was the title of the presiding chief at Onondaga. The title of “Tadodaho” does not appear in any
records until c.1750. It is possible that Garakontie was Tadadaho.)

Hotrewati (Big Mouth) (c.1684 – 1699) (an important orator and diplomat)
Teganissorens (1682-1718) (an important orator and diplomat, but called “chief sachem of Onondaga”
in 1713)

Aqueendera (Aquadarondo) (<1694 - 1701) (chief sachem of the Onandaga, therefore a probable
unattested Tadodaho. Alternated as speaker with Teganissorens.
Aqueendera II (Kaquendero) (1701? - >1710) (He also bore the title Sagochiendaghehte or
Sadekanacktie)
Teganissorens (c.1713 – 1718) (see note above)

1710 – Tuscarora refugees join the confederation, now called the Six Nations

Kaheskarowaneh (<1743 - >1745) (chief sachem of the Onandaga, therefore an unattested Tadodaho?)
Canasetego (c.1742-1750) (an important orator and diplomat, and a power at Onondaga, called “titular
head of Onondaga Council)
Tohashwachdiony (Kakhswenthioni, Red Head) (1750 - 1756) (successor to Canasetego)

1760 – New France falls to England.
1768 – The southern and eastern limits of Iroquoia regularized by the Treaty of Ft. Stanwix.

Teyawarunte (<1764 – >1774) (an important orator and diplomat, and a power at Onondaga)
Diaquande (< 1764 – >1774) (head war chief at Onondaga, although holding an Oneida league title)

Wathatodarho (1765-1767)

Otsinoghiyata (The Sinew, The Bunt) (<1752- 1774) (“head of the Grand Council and Fireplace” at
Onondaga, a probable unattested Tadodarho) (dates conflict with some above sachems)
Onagogare (1774- ? ) Bunt’s successor

1777 – The council fire extinguished at Onondaga. “Embers” brought to Buffalo Creek (N.Y.) and
Grand River (Ontario). Probable instances of duplicate league titles in Canada and New York
State.

Buffalo Creek Era (1777 - 1842) and,
Grand River (Ohsweken) Era (1784 – present)

Big Sky (<1792 - >1794) (the head Onondaga chief at the Canadaigua treaty)

1794 – First definitive treaty with U.S., at Canadaigua
1799 – Handsome Lake has his first vision

Handsome Lake (Ganyadaiyo) (religious prophet named leading chief of confederacy) (1801 – c. 1805,
d.1815)

1842 – Sale of the Buffalo Creek lands

Second Onondaga Era (1842 – present)

1848 – Seneca Nation supplants life chiefs with elected councilors.
1924 – League council of life chiefs replaced as the ruling body at Grand River by elected
administrators.

143? Joseph Logan (<1936 - >1951)
144. George Thomas (? – 1965)
145. Leon Shenandoah (1967 or 1969 – 1996)
146. Sid Hill (2002 – present)
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srhigham
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Tadodahos redux --- recovered thread Reply with quote

Bruce,

I found the lost portions of this old thread on Google. In the absence of ever hearing back from you on this, I'm reposting it because there were some lost comments that are worth preserving.

srhigham


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 12 Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: Haudenosaunee Tadodahos


Bruce,

You mentioned that it would be nice to have a list of the Tadodahos or Fire-Keepers of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) Confederacy (also called Speakers or Chief-of-chiefs.)I only have a small amount of information on this and it is likely that nothing here is new to you...

A historical theory from the last 10 or 15 years provided a date for the founding of this confederacy.

The historians took as true two facts. Firstly, that there had been 145 Tadodahos up to the date of the study. This number apparently was developed from oral traditions as well as (possibly) looking at objects
known as "Condolence Canes" that (at the least) "list" the number of Tadodahos with beadwork. (I believe that the canes do not indicate the names of the Tadodahos, since the beads or decorations offer at most mnemonic devices.) Also, the oral (later written) foundation story indicates that the confederacy was founded during a total solar eclipse that (obviously) predated the colonial era. (The details of this foundation are well known and I won't go into them here.) Also, although early American historians thought the foundation occurred not too far before the colonial era, the Haudenosaunee themselves thought it occurred hundreds of years before.

Based on the eclipse and the number of Tadodahos on the list, the historians theorized that the foundation occured on August 31, 1142.

Unfortunately, I've so far only been able to find the names of 4 of the now 146 Tadodahos! These are:

1. Tadodaho (Atotarho) 1142-? (his name became the title)
?. Joseph Brant (Thayendanega) <1759-1807
145. Leon Shenandoah 1967 or 1969 - 1996
146. Sid Hill 2002 - present.

I believe there might be a two year trial period at the beginning of "reigns" that could be the reason for two dates at the beginning of Chief Shenandoah's dates. I've seen the same discrepancy (to 2000) for Chief Hill.

It should be possible to track down some other names starting with the beginning of the colonial era. I am dubious about the existence of all the names earlier than that.

srhigham

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srhigham



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 12 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:06 am Post subject:



Here's a small amount of new information and a correction:

Brant could not have been Tadodaho since he was a Cayuga, not an Onandaga.

A contemporary report stated that Cartier was harangued by an old Indian woman with the names of 33 Tadodahos in 1534.

I have the name of Chief #144 (from Onandaga Nation website).

With that, my known list is now:

1. Tadodaho (Atotarho) (1142-?) (his name became the title)
33. name unknown (c.1534)
144. George Thomas (? – 1965)
145. Leon Shenandoah (1967 or 1969 – 1996)
146. Sid Hill (2002 – present)

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Guest




Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: Latest version



Quote:
Bruce,


I think that installing the latest version might help and do not forget to do its updates.

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Obsidian



Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Akron, Ohio, USA Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:53 am Post subject:



Greetings
Thanks very much, Srhigham. This is a very good start on this important topic - it parallels some of the material I've seen, and gives all the readers here an indication of ther frustration I've felt, inasmuch as you'd think there would be records or references to these people in the middle and earlier 20th century, at least. I suspect there is, in fact; but I'm also beginning to wonder if it's private records held by the Iroquois Nation that they don't want outsiders to see.

On the other hand, as anyone who has wandered through Regnal Chronologies lists has noticed, I have a number of lists that are almost barren of any data, simply because the information has been lost in one way or another

Well, I'll keep plugging away at it, and use what you've come up with as a basis. FWIW, my impression has been that the confederation began sometime in the later 16th century, with Hiawatha - but I suppose that the Tadohado reference to the 12th century could be the commencement of a line of local Speakers going back earlier than the beginning of the Five Nations Confederation.

Bruce
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Guest




Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject:



Bruce,

Thanks for the encouraging words.

You wrote "my impression has been that the confederation began sometime in the later 16th century, with Hiawatha" .

That was/is still the "mainstream" view, it seems. But the 12th century theory not only places Atotarho back in that time, it also places Hiawatha (Ayonwatha, Ayonwenta, etc.) and Deganawida (the Peacemaker) there also.

I'm not qualified to venture any opinion one way or the other, but it sure is "fun" to imagine all these personages going back that far. I haven't seen anything that would place the Atotarhos back to the 12th century, and leave Hiawatha and the actual foundation to the 16th century.

S. R. Higham

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Obsidian



Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Akron, Ohio, USA Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject:



Greetings
Oh, certainly - I agree entirely that Hiawatha and Deganawida are from the same era; just, which era is the question.

I tend to be conservative in these sort of matters - there is a tendency to reach further back in time by playing with assumptions about the average length of generations, or average length of incumbency in a rulership position. Thus an ever-earlier time frame for the foundation of a polity is claimed, based to one extent or another on issues revolving around cultural pride. You see the same kind of tension between insider viewpoint and outsider viewpoint in Indian (Hindu) chronology, in Japanese chronology, and (frankly) in Biblical chronology wherein early patriarchs are given simply amazing life-spans. Other examples can be thought of, I'm sure. My tendency is to be a bit of a stick-in-the-mud, and given two choices of equal probability, I will usually accept the default or standard interpretation until the revisionist notion shows a great deal of hard evidence.

Now, having said that, I also want to go on record as admitting that just because an idea is outside mainstream, that doesn't make it wrong. I'm willing to change my opinion, but I tend to respect established experts in a field, and want good solid evidence before revising my own ideas.

In the matter at hand, when I get around to setting something up for the Iroquois, I'll likely frame it in terms of the 16th century model, but provide an extended comment describing the viewpoint that touts a 12th century origin, and let the reader decide.

Cordially;
Bruce R. Gordon
_________________
Ex Tenebra, Lux

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Guest




Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject:



Hmmm,

I thought I had logged in for that last post...it really is mine!

One more thing I read:

The ritual during certain Iroquois ceremonies is a recital of the names of fifty chiefs present during the confederation's founding. For a certain percentage of these names (maybe 20% IIRC), the names no longer have meanings in the language. That is, they are in archaic language. Some have said that this also lends credence to an earlier foundation date. Whether this argues for a twelfth century foundation, or one even earlier, I am not sure.

S. R. Higham

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Obsidian



Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Akron, Ohio, USA Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:06 am Post subject:



Greetings
You are listed as "Guest" in this last one, too - I'm not sure why; I've looked over the srhigham entry in the membership lists and everything there seems to be in order - you are checked as "active". Perhaps you ought to visit your membership file and make sure your password is what it ought to be.

Regarding the linguistic data, (shrug) depends on how quickly the language has changed - some languages seem to change pretty slowly - others evolve relatively rapidly (Arabic comes to mind for the former, English is an example of the latter). But English wouldnt be a good example, especially, since proper names in all European languages are honorifics rather than descriptives normally found in Amerindian languages.

Bruce
_________________
Ex Tenebra, Lux

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srhigham



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 12 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:



Bruce,

What follows are the latest results of my research. Most of this new material was gleaned by careful reading of
Fenton’s “The Great Law and the Longhouse.” I can now present the names of 17 head Onondaga sachems.
These should all be Tadodahos, holders of equivalent titles, attested as Grand Council leaders, or head
Onondaga sachems. All of these should be functionally the same thing. Fenton seems to have actively
sought to find any and all references to the Tadodaho title. It turns out that this title, and the Iroquios
League Council mechanism, is an elusive and obscure thing in the historical record, and in fact seems to
have died out completely at times. For instance, the title itself was unknown to outsiders until 1745! There
are periods where some or all of the Tadodaho functions were done by men with different titles.

By the way, Fenton was a lifetime professional ethno-historian who devoted his entire career to the
Iroquois.

I’ve tried to format this document according to the Regnal Chronology model, with some names (not the
17) indented if they were important Onondaga chiefs, but definitely not head sachems. I’ve also put in
“era” corresponding to the location of the Council Fire. I hope my formatting will survive the transition
from MS Word to your forum.

Fenton doesn’t continue the story in any detail past the Handsome Lake period (c. 1805). If there is more
information out there, it would be for the period 1805 to present. However, it’s my belief that this
information will be in primary scholarly sources, or in private hands.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

srhigham

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srhigham



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 12 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:17 am Post subject:



Tadodahos of the Haudenosaunee and other Onondaga head sachems

First Onondaga Era (1142 or c.1450 – 1777)
1142 or c. 1450 Semi-legendary foundation of the League of Five Nations by the prophet
Deganawidah and his disciple Hiawatha, accepted by Tadodaho and 49 other chiefs. The fifty
names are passed down as titles in a Grand League Council at Onandaga Longhouse.

Tadodaho (Atotarho) (1142-? or c. 1450-?) (his name became the title)

name unknown (33rd Tadodaho) (fl. 1534) (Mohawk tradition says that Cartier was harangued with the
names of 33 Tadodahos)

Garakontie, called Sagochiendagehte (1654 - 1677) (This title, meaning “the name bearer”,
was the title of the presiding chief at Onondaga. The title of “Tadodaho” does not appear in any
records until c.1750. It is possible that Garakontie was Tadadaho.)

Hotrewati (Big Mouth) (c.1684 – 1699) (an important orator and diplomat)
Teganissorens (1682-1718) (an important orator and diplomat, but called “chief sachem of Onondaga”
in 1713)

Aqueendera (Aquadarondo) (<1694>1710) (He also bore the title Sagochiendaghehte or
Sadekanacktie)
Teganissorens (c.1713 – 1718) (see note above)

1710 – Tuscarora refugees join the confederation, now called the Six Nations

Kaheskarowaneh (<1743>1745) (chief sachem of the Onandaga, therefore an probable unattested Tadodaho)
Canasetego (c.1742-1750) (an important orator and diplomat, and a power at Onondaga, called “titular
head of Onondaga Council")
Tohashwachdiony (Kakhswenthioni, Red Head) (1750 - 1756) (successor to Canasetego)

1760 – New France falls to England.
1768 – The southern and eastern limits of Iroquoia regularized by the Treaty of Ft. Stanwix.

Teyawarunte (<1764>1774) (an important orator and diplomat, and a power at Onondaga)
Diaquande (<1764>1774) (head war chief at Onondaga, although holding an Oneida league title)

Wathatodarho (1765-1767)

Bunt (<1774- 1774) (“head of the Grand Council and Fireplace” at Onondaga, therefore a probable unattested Tadodarho)
Onagogare (1774- ? ) Bunt’s successor

1777 – The council fire extinguished at Onondaga. “Embers” brought to Buffalo Creek (N.Y.) and
Grand River (Ontario). Probable instances of duplicate league titles in Canada and New York
State.

Buffalo Creek Era (1777 - 1842) and,
Grand River (Ohsweken) Era (1784 – present)

Big Sky (<1792>1794) (the head Onondaga chief at the Canadaigua treaty)

1794 – First definitive treaty with U.S., at Canadaigua
1799 - Handsome Lake has his first vision

Handsome Lake (Ganyadaiyo) (religious prophet named leading chief of confederacy) (1801 – c. 1805,
d.1815)

1842 – Sale of the Buffalo Creek lands

Second Onondaga Era (1842 – present)

1848 – Seneca Nation supplants life chiefs with elected councilors.
1924 – League council of life chiefs replaced as the ruling body at Grand River by elected
administrators.

Joseph Logan (<1936>1951) (the 143rd Tadodaho?)
George Thomas (? – 1965) (the 144th Tadodaho)
Leon Shenandoah (1967 or 1969 – 1996)(the 145th Tadodaho)
Sid Hill (2002 – present) (the 146th Tadodaho)

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srhigham



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 12 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject:



The formatting of my list did not survive the transition completely.
Please indent the following individuals:

Hotrewati
Teganissorens (the first mention)
Teyawarunte
Diaquande

srhigham
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